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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i wondered if anyone knew anything about the laggy throttle response with the cvt tranny. I was talking to someone about them with snowmobiles and that people are able to tune them so they have no lag... Would that in anyway be possible with these cvt's?
 

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I think the "lag" in our cars isn't so much the trany itslef, but the whole electronic throttle control and the computer controlling EVERYTHING!!! The tranny can't do anythig until the computer tells it. So to "tune" it to be better would require an aftermarket tuner of some sort, which would require either someone hack Dodges source code, or for Dodge to release the programing to compnies such as JET, or SuperChips.
 

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HSKR said:
...or for Dodge to release the programing to compnies such as JET, or SuperChips.
I'm hoping that they will release something like the Mopar Stage-1 upgrades like what they have for the Neons but for the Caliber. Perhaps when the SRT hits the streets the after market will jump into high gear.
 

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Im curious as to whay type of torque converter is used in the CVT. It feels to me that the "false shift" people often mention is the TC lockup. I wounder how high the stall is.
 

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Fingernipp said:
Im curious as to whay type of torque converter is used in the CVT. It feels to me that the "false shift" people often mention is the TC lockup. I wounder how high the stall is.
I hope aftermarket finds a fix, but many say it gets better in time.
 

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i honestly dont mind it at all. Off the line acceleration is actually pretty damn good. It jumps right up and takes off. The drawback to the CVT is you leave your peak torque range an never return rather than shift points that can utilize hp and torque. Even so i have no problem at all jumping out in traffic and passing even from a stand still (newengland driver) :)
 

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While the transissions in snowmobiles and some Quads are similar in concept the Calibers is vastly different. Snowmobiles do not rely on a computer to control them.
 

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I found that after hitting the go button, i let off the throttle to bring the rpm's off of redline, and the powerband hits and I feel myself being pushed back. my .2
 

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"Throttle lag" is very common with electronic controlled throttle bodies.

The exact cause of the lag is still pretty much unknown. Though the main blame seems to be on the ECU itself. Most people state they don't have a problem with the lag when the car is at anything but idle speed. At idle speed the ECU is trying to maintain idle, in most electronic controlled throttle bodies, the idle air control motor/valve has been eliminated and the ECU alternates the opening of the throttle body butterfly to maintain idle speed. So the ECU has to go from operating the butterfly to maintain idle, to you pushing the pedal to the floor and it having to switch to just operating the butterfly in relation to pedal position. Fuel map might also be different at idle speed as well.

Those who have hooked up vacuum gauges to engines such as these have noticed instaneously vacuum in relation to pedal position, so it is not restrictive intake or poorly designed intake or anything like that. The vacuum response means it is trying, but something is limiting it, the ECU.

Will Dodge come out with a flash to fix this? Nope. This is not a Corvette, not a Crossfire, not a Mustang. This is a family-friendly 4-door hatch. Why ruin fuel economy for the sake of pleasing 15% of your owners?
 

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Great explanation there, CoolCallie. I really don't have any issues with the lag. I've learned how to drive in a different style. But if I did have issues, I think CC's explanation would have helped.
 

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On my dodge Ram 5.7 truck when Superchips came out with a programmer, it made a Huge Difference in pedal feel and throttle lag. I also did a mod where there is a throttle cable from my gas pedal on my truck to a box located on the driver side of the truck near the battery that has the throttle sensor for lack of a better term. I put a tie wrap around the cable to take up the slack in the cable. This helped with the dead feel at the first press of the gas pedal.

Also, if I remember right, with the ignition on and the engine not running, you would press the gas pedal to the floor and release it to calibrate the computer to know the full travel of the gas pedal. Don't know if the Caliber is the same or not. The caliber has a switch or click when you press the pedal to the floor.

Just a couple of thoughts for anyone that wants to investigate this on the Caliber.

Later

Mike
 

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i see the throttle lag hardcore with my 1.8l 5 spd... its actually a long time from pedal push to RPM movement... this makes stand still to accel on a hill kinda a pain in the ass... gonna try the reflash that was mentioned in that thread as soon as time permits... maybe monday if my dealer has time
 

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Fingernipp said:
Im curious as to whay type of torque converter is used in the CVT. It feels to me that the "false shift" people often mention is the TC lockup. I wounder how high the stall is.
Want to know the stall speed? Just put the car in drive, mash the brake with your left foor, and mash the throttle with your right foot. (make sure there's nothing in front of you that you can run over). Your RPM will go up the the stall speed.... Maybe something to try on a "test drive" at the dealer rather than your own car.

As far as Electronic Throttle lag goes, there are a couple of causes. One is the ECU itself. It needs to do all sorts of safety calculations before it actually moves the throttle, so you're stuck with some delay. The bigger lag is in the Electronic Throttle itself. It can only open so fast, so even if you mash the pedal and instantly floor it, it takes a while for the throttle to open -- response of the actuator just isn't that fast.

That said, there are some games you can play in the software to make things "better" Curious how the re-flash works out for Mudstone (let us all know, won't you?)
 

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it is limited to 2600 rpm...i was power braking it at the track...see my thread in the general section.
Bryan
 

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Tito said:
Want to know the stall speed? Just put the car in drive, mash the brake with your left foor, and mash the throttle with your right foot. (make sure there's nothing in front of you that you can run over). Your RPM will go up the the stall speed.... Maybe something to try on a "test drive" at the dealer rather than your own car.
But that's not true stall speed. Read any websites that talk about ho torque converters work, and they all say that's not the way to test stall speed.
 

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I found that putting the pedal to the floor doesnt elicit as much throttle response as holdint it 3/4 of the way down until you start to gain speed, and then pushing it down the rest of the way to bring it to the redline. One of the things with the vvt engines is that they produce more of their power in the most frequently used RPM range, not the high end range like older engines. Thats why the throttle response is not as noticeable when you punch the pedal all the way down, the power is at a lower range. I think this is more of a fuel economy thing than anything else
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
ah don't mind the two years later part... But back to subject.. I notice the lag everytime i release the gas and re apply. This really sucks for winter driving as it is Very difficult if at all possible to hold a rev anything under 2100-2200 rpms which to me in any car is the speed where you start slipping around.
 

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CoolCallie said:
"Throttle lag" is very common with electronic controlled throttle bodies.

The exact cause of the lag is still pretty much unknown. Though the main blame seems to be on the ECU itself. Most people state they don't have a problem with the lag when the car is at anything but idle speed. At idle speed the ECU is trying to maintain idle, in most electronic controlled throttle bodies, the idle air control motor/valve has been eliminated and the ECU alternates the opening of the throttle body butterfly to maintain idle speed. So the ECU has to go from operating the butterfly to maintain idle, to you pushing the pedal to the floor and it having to switch to just operating the butterfly in relation to pedal position. Fuel map might also be different at idle speed as well.
In the Caliber the ECU and motor work together to push the throttle plate closed to obtain idle. It's part of the "limp home mode".
 

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tonyk said:
In the Caliber the ECU and motor work together to push the throttle plate closed to obtain idle. It's part of the "limp home mode".
Here is a 4.0L V6 Mustang ETB I dissected:



I purchased it back in 2005, as the 03 Mazda6 I had, also used an ETB. I dissected it so I could understand how it works, then reassembled it and develed into actually making the thing work with the Mazda. Even with the assistance of a DBW tech from Pleasurecraft, we could not get the TPS voltages right.

Revisiting the thread just now to get this picture allowed me to re-read what we talked about and some forgotten ideas have resurfaced:

- The TPS on ETBs, sometimes, produces transient fueling. Alot of people mistake the fact that it's not the ETB closing too quickly and losing air, but rather, losing fuel too quickly due to TPS voltages. DCR's thread about it bogging down and dropping out of boost when they lift off the pedal at the track, it's not the ETB shutting, it's just losing fuel.

- It is possible to fool the TPS voltages and drop more fuel in. Developing something like a resistor box but with a flip switch circuit so you can flip it on and off. The resistors, when activated, would raise, or lower, the voltage of the signal wires off the TPS. Basically tricking the ECU into thinking your at WOT, but your not.

- If the factory AFR is too rich (IE my last vehicle), and the vehicle does not have a MAP sensor in the intake manifold. You can introduce a filtered air leak downstream of the MAF sensor. Since the MAF sensor is not picking up this extra air, it will lean out the AFR and advance ignition timing, which it may correct back if spark knock/detonation is detected.

- Intake Manifold Tumblers & Intake Manifold Runner Control systems do generate more torque (low-end power), but not by simply altering the air velocity into the cylinders. This added velocity, ramming effect, allows for an increase in timing, which creates torque, safely. This second part is never mentioned when people discuss the pros and cons of intake manifold tumblers/butterflies.
 
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