Trying out E85

dcjredline · Jul 16, 2008

Hey all, Today I put 3gals of E85 into the Cali then filled it up with 87octane from there. I will use this post to report anything I see different/strange/funny/good about it. I wont add more than 3 gals until I have gone through at least 3 tanks this way. My goal is to slowly increase my E85 usage to about 50%. I have driven it 15 miles already and havent noticed anything YET. That isnt even close to enough time just a place holder.

Please feel free to (maturely) discuss E85 in this post I wont care one bit. What I dont want to get into is that I am going to ruin my Cali by doing this, I AM WILLING TO RISK IT. I also understand I only saved about $3 today using that little E85 IT IS NOT ABOUT SAVING MONEY, its about reducing my dependency on foreign oil, be it small and insignificant as it is with 3 gals a tank.

18030mi first tank with 3gal E85 7/16/2008

Fingernipp · Jul 16, 2008

Have you heard of the petroleum substitute scientists were able to produce using bacteria and any ole vegetation? Ill see if I can find the article, but they made it sound very promising. Replenishable and can even be used to make plastics as well as fuels. E85 seems to have just been a gimmick to sell more cars. 25% or so less efficient yet still dependant on oil and also raises the price of domestic crops.

GreaseMonkey · Jul 16, 2008

Good luck...I won't say anything else due to your request.

n1vek · Jul 16, 2008

GreaseMonkey said:
Good luck...I won't say anything else due to your request.

Ditto. Best of luck, make sure to post back any results. I am interested to see what happens.

Fingernipp · Jul 16, 2008

I dont see much harm comming from it... But you have to consider that even with 50% or ~E48 you will be running well above the 87 octain rating the engine is designed for. Overtime you will be using more of it and eventually the gasoline saved and extra fuel used numbers will eclipse. I definetly dont feel like trying to figure that out lol.

dcjredline · Jul 16, 2008

I have heard of the bugs making petrol before. I also have done a bunch of research (internet research so I have to take that with a grain of corn) and feel that the CEL will illuminate at a point where there is something going on that is not supposed to be IE running dangerously lean etc. I also have heard that the "increase" in corn cost being directly related to E85 is crap who knows.

I do know that E85 is all we HAVE at this point in time so that is what I am going to try. As I have said before I would like to get a Chevy Volt if GM is still around long enough to release it LOL. Until then I am going to use what I can to try and help this country. Along with driving habits that have changed in all vehicles I drive.

I was getting 31ish MPG with straight gas. E85 is $1.06 cheaper a gallon. I wouldn't see a savings until I got to a full tank of E85 but that is never going to happen.

Thanks greasemonkey for respecting my request, I think I pretty much know what I am getting into and I am willing to risk it even at the cost of an engine but I think that is a long shot. Feel free to PM me cause I sure dont know EVERYTHING there is to know, I just wanted this to be a general E85 discussion and a means for me to track my findings about the use of it in a non Flex vehicle.

dcjredline · Jul 16, 2008

Just did a quick figure.

13gal of Fuel x 31mpg = 403 Miles and $56.55

@23.25MPG (25% drop from gas) with Full E85 and the same $56.55 I could get 399.63 Miles on ~17gallons

@24.8MPG (20% drop from gas) with full E85 and the same $56.55 I could get 426.27 Miles on ~17 gallons

So to go the same distance as with gas I would need ~2-3 more gallons of E85.

FYI for all.

Fingernipp · Jul 16, 2008

Do you understand my logic when i said that over time the gasoline savings and less efficiency will eclipse? I thought of a better way of putting it.... E85 = 15% gasoline vs 90% in E10 so you can figure maybe 10-25% less efficient. Eventually the 90% gasoline will actually be at the exact same amount of gallons consumed as the 15%. Now with a 52% mix like you plan to do it will happen even sooner depending on how well it burns and what octain its ends up at.

dcjredline · Jul 16, 2008

Yup I get your point. Its also a good one which I have to contemplate a little more. It goes against my argument of not depending on foreign oil!! Damn you!! LOL

Only thing I can say to that is that when I pump from that pump it says right on it "This is NOT an EXXON MOBIL product" I like that part ALOT.

leesrt · Jul 16, 2008

Being independant of foreign oil means getting our own oil, not using products we use for food to make our cars go.

I'm glad your experimenting but in reality, ethonal takes more energy to make, produces less energy when it's burned as fuel, and reduces fuel economy.

It's a temp fix for the tree huggers and since it's all they've got that actually kinda works they're running with it in congress.

Until we become independant on what we currently use as our fuel standard, OIL, we will never develop something that is actually better.

Master what you have and then you can develop what you don't have.

leepen · Jul 16, 2008

Just a couple of questions. Are you running larger injectors, a Wide band or some type of fuel management? I am converting my DSM to e85, but I have 1600c injectors and the things mentioned above plus. With e85 it takes 30% more fuel and you can run a more agressive timing. Good luck. Do we have a plastic fuel tank?

GreaseMonkey · Jul 16, 2008

dcjredline said:
Thanks greasemonkey for respecting my request, I think I pretty much know what I am getting into and I am willing to risk it even at the cost of an engine but I think that is a long shot. Feel free to PM me cause I sure dont know EVERYTHING there is to know, I just wanted this to be a general E85 discussion and a means for me to track my findings about the use of it in a non Flex vehicle.

It's not necessarily the engine you have to worry about. It's the rest of the fuel system.

dcjredline · Jul 17, 2008

Well I havent seen enough evidence that a fuel system made to handle 10% ethanol wouldn't be able to stand up to lets say for the sake of argument E55. What parts exactly should I be worried about running ~40% more ethanol in the fuel system? I heard seals and etc so what is the material that new seals for flex vehicles are made of if not VITON? Also stainless lines are on flex vehicles OK I should check that, I saw the stainless lines on my dads stock 99 Wrangler and just havent looked at the Calis yet. Also maybe a plastic tank would be another thing to check cause I know the plastic tank would be bad for a full E85 fill up.

Does anyone KNOW what exact components are in a FFV vs a fossil fuel one?
Stainless lines are all I KNOW.
I also KNOW plastic tanks cannot hold up to ethanol.

dcjredline · Jul 17, 2008

OK, did some more research on the FFV vs Regular
Test subject was 1999 Ford Taurus 3.0 Vin 2 FFV and 1999 Taurus 3.0 Vin U non FFV
Looked up on AutoZone website following parts
Injectors
O-rings for injectors
Pressure Regulator
Pump
Tank
Fuel Line Assy (front) Dorman-OE Solutions Includes seals and gaskets needed for installation; spring lock coupling - male: 14.17mm Conn. body; 6.35mm hose x 12.7mm push connect.
O2 sensor before cat
Intake Gaskets
Plenum Gasket

Parts that are different are RED ones that are the same are Black

Discuss please.

Looks to me like the seals, lines, and tank are the same between FFV and NON. Injectors and pump and pressure regulator are different and I would expect that cause they need to handle the pressure increase asked for when E85 is present per the different O2 sensor.

I will do this with more vehicles tomorrow too just to get a better survey.

dcjredline · Jul 19, 2008

HUH nothing to add to the research in 2 days? What about "the fuel system is going to be ruined?" I am not trying to rub this in someones face just looking for other ways to splain this if there is one.

leepen · Jul 19, 2008

There quite a few e85 conversions running around out here. Evos, DSMs, Nissans even some boosted Hondas and the only problem I have heard is from the oldercars with metal tanks. Is the e85 disoulves the varnish like substance the coats the inside of the tank, and they just clean their filters. The methanol based gasses from the 70s-80s, is the one that eat seals and hoses.

dcjredline · Jul 19, 2008

Yeah filters need to be changed around the 1st 1000 miles from what I have seen on the net but nothing proving that anything in the fuel system will get eaten or ruined.

hwc2243 · Jul 20, 2008

I won't discount the advantages of reducing our dependence on foreign oil. There are 2 issues with E85 that I can't get past. One being burning food when people are starving in the world (but all of intricacies of that could be discussed forever). The other issue is the impact on the environment. Ethanol produces more C02 when its burnt and coupled with the fact that you have to burn more (lower energy content) it contributes significantly to the greenhouse gas problem. Adding in the fact, growing corn is hard on the soil and the deforestation that is happening in other countries to grow crops for E85, all reduces the Earth's only mechanism for removing CO2 from the air.

Just another side of the E85 issue to think about.

Are the regular Calibers designed for Ethanol? I think one of the big things that is different on Ethanol vehicles is the ECU programming. Because of the lower energy content, they need different fuel maps and timing curves. I know the actual FFV ECUs track a %ethanol parameter and use it for engine calculations. Other than that the 2 biggest things I'm aware of is the ethanol breaking down the varnish that forms from regular gas and clogging injectors, and the fact that ethanol is water soluable.

All of that being said, I'm curious what happens to your mileage and vehicle performance in general.

dcjredline · Jul 21, 2008

Well so far 260 miles on just under 3/4 tank which is about on par with normal. The performance hasnt changed at all with only 3 gallons. Ethanol doesnt produce CO2 where did you hear that? It is 83% less pollution than gas. As far as using food I guess I have no argument there, the only thing I can say is that there are 3 or 4 by-products of making ethanol and one of them is used to feed livestock. The others were too complicated for me to understand (Its Monday)

GreaseMonkey · Jul 21, 2008

So previously you didn't want to argue why it may damage your fuel system, now you want to?

Trying out E85

dcjredline

Fingernipp

GreaseMonkey

n1vek

Fingernipp

dcjredline

dcjredline

Fingernipp

dcjredline

leesrt

leepen

GreaseMonkey

dcjredline

dcjredline

dcjredline

leepen

dcjredline

hwc2243

dcjredline

GreaseMonkey

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